While searching for “Fake Indians” on Youtube because, evidently, there are a lot, I stumbled across a video entitled “Fake Indian.” A screen-capture was its title card. On one side was a bushy headed white dude in a cornflower blue t-shirt; on the other, a view of what looked like an art gallery. Intrigued, and a little amused, I thought, “I bet this guy claims he’s ‘Cherokee’ on his great grandfather’s side, and this is some weird ass art thingy about his ‘Native identity.’”

I clicked on the video hoping to get a good laugh at the white guy’s expense.          

As it turns out Jim Brown is not a Cherokee. Jim Brown is white with no Indian blood to speak of, but he is intimately involved with Lakota ceremony through his long-standing friendship with John Funmaker – a Lakota/Hochunk elder and religious leader working in and around Los Angeles. And his Fake Indian installation is not some “weird ass art shit” like I thought it would be, rather it is a multi-textural interactive piece that addresses conflicts of personal and political identities, (mis) representations, and false notions. It’s about inter-personal dialogs, and challenging one’s pre-conceptions. It’s about hand-made spaces and site specificity. It’s about a lot of stuff, but mostly it’s about me not getting to mock the “white Cherokee.” After watching the clip about ten times in a row trying to decipher what he was getting at with the various installation components I decided to contact him to ask why he chose the icons he did, how he saw their function in the space he created, and why the whole thing was called Fake Indian - one of the most loaded terms in all of Indian Country.


What is your background in the arts? Did you go to art school? Are you trained in any one medium? Fake Indian was an obvious conceptual installation; do you consider yourself a conceptual artist?

I hijacked some facilities at art Center College of Design in Pasadena California and a few other not so trendy elite colleges in order to make some stuff. But I never wanted to go into debt and didn't have the cash to afford an art school degree, so I did about 5 plus years at community colleges between California and Arizona and used their facilities. I worked at art center so I was able to take some free classes and make work work for me. I also worked at The Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles for ten years during which time I helped artists such as Paul McCarthy, Hermann Nietzsche, Elsworth Kelly, Mike Kelly, Gregor Schneider, Barbra Kruger, Claes Oldenburg, Joseph Kosuth, Raymond Pettibone, Jeff Wall, Karen Finley, Yutaka Sone, Matthew Barney, Sigmar Polke, Richard Serra, Jason Rhoades and many others. And daily, I was exposed to the permanent collection. So, my education was a kind of direct hands on, one-on-one kind of thing.

I consider myself an activist and my medium is a language called art. Whatever I believe to be the best way to say what I want within a particular situation will determine what medium I will use or more often combine. I don't want to limit myself to one discipline.

Being an artist can be considered a concept, so in that sense, I would consider myself a conceptual artist. But, really all I am trying to do is ask questions about what we as a society have accepted and where we are going. So in this regard I would consider myself more of a communicator, commuting between ideas.


What was your inspiration for making the Fake Indian piece? Specifically, what propelled you to create it, as it is shown in the video on Youtube - multi-layered with sound, motorized components and images?

Fake Indian was inspired by that invisible force that wants to express thoughts that have no sequence of words to chain them together so they can be digested into the building blocks of dreams. It was a combination of several ideas that I was currently working with, and some that I was waiting for the right space to execute them into, and the fact that a housing inspector from L.A. came to the home me and my brother rent and said I couldn't have anything in my garage but a car. So I was going to have to toss out a bunch of stuff I had that I was planning on making my next installation with, so I built a crude version of it in my bedroom and invited Marsea of New Image Art Gallery over to look at it. She liked it and reluctantly gave me a show. The name of the show was her idea - she finds it interesting that I am white and do traditional Indian ceremony. I took all the ideas of turning things around and made Fake Indian.

Was the installation site specific and/or part of a larger dialog about Native identity and/or multi cultural identity politics?

I wanted to use this little room at New Image Art for a long time and when Marsea offered it to me it was perfect. My work was meant for that space. I built it to spec for that room. But with that said, my work is built with the intention of reassembling it again with other pieces. This is the second "little room" I have constructed and I intend at some point to put them both together so that the ideas contained in them can expand into a larger conversation. Both rooms deal with identity politics. I think the idea of "who we are" is the key to the answer because at some point the question "who do we want to be" comes into that and once we engage that we start to move outside of our self to one degree or more. I would gamble to bet that the evolution of human consciousness is rooted in self-discovery by way of observation of self. Becoming conscious is where it is at for me. I want to gain more awareness so my work is always woven with this intention. Installation art is a great medium because you can control the external stimuli; we can take our viewer in with us and introduce them to the world we want them to experience. It's like "Here, check this trip out." No L.S.D. required.

What’s the art scene like in L.A.?

I am not too sure what it is like to work as an artist in any city other than Los Angeles, but I do know that it is very happening here. On whatever level you want to participate you can find it: street style, lowbrow, insider/outsider, fine art, conceptual, sculpture, architecture, and video. You name it it’s here to the point where it’s easy to get lost in the whole thing. There are several very well known art schools in the area and so many iconic artists living here, that for me, it is inspirational; it also helps me to become focused on what I’m doing. But, I don't get caught up in making work that feels like what others are doing. It's like living in the city helps you appreciate the woods. So as beneficial as the huge art scene is, I also like to keep some distance from it; I find it helps me keep my thoughts clear.

You've said (in the video on Youtube) that those who are not as familiar with Native people may not understand the objective of your installation. Can you give us a more nuanced understanding of what it was you were trying to get across with the piece, and discuss how it is you came to have a more in depth understanding of Native identity, enough to comment on the conflicts of interest and the ironies you point out through this installation?

Fake Indian is in many ways an ironic sweat lodge in that it is square rather then round; you can stand up inside rather than having a low ceiling. There are some lights inside rather than having it totally dark. You enter from the East rather than the West - that is the traditional Lakota way. The morning star symbol above is made from ridged 2 x 4s rather than limber round willow branches. These are some of the obvious things that, unless you where Native and/or participated in ceremony, you may not be familiar with. These elements within the installation are comments about opposites existing within the same space: the fact that I am white but pray like an Indian, the way we try to hold pre-conceived concepts within their preexisting confines creates resistance to change and subsequently, anything that is not consistent with these terms, we often label a “square wheel.” Fake Indian attempts to talk about the resistance to opposites occupying the same space, and how new combinations create opportunity for expansion and evolution, for example, the installation is a room inside a room inside the gallery inside the city. We enter four times before we experience the inner space. This is the onion of knowing. Behind every layer is another one, within all persons there is a history, from the outside we can only know a fraction. In the city we navigate through crude social interactions, then we enter the gallery. As we walk through the gallery we see all the other artist’s works, a kind of social gathering where many meet slightly more formal. Then we enter into Fake Indian yet prior to that we can hear the music from the piece, the drum beating.

The installation itself is a 6ft x 6ft x 6ft room. The gallery space it was built in is approximately 8ft x 8ft x 8ft creating a corridor approximately 2 feet in width along the exterior of the inner room, the number 2 being a distance and a numerological symbol for two things, two people, two rooms. The number six represents the direction West, North, East, South, Above, Below.

The walls off the piece are covered shingle style with brown grocery bags that have been cut open allowing them to lay flat. On the bags are images of Kachinas drawn with a fat Sharpie marker. The 100 plus drawings that cover the walls of the installation where drawn by myself and about 12 other artists. Traditional Kachinas are made by different Kachina-makers; each one varies slightly according to the artist’s rendition of the Kachina. The Kachinas in this installation represent the intelligence that protects the inner self from the outside world as we pass through the corridor of life. When I was little my family would visit my grandmother Brown in Prescot Arizona. They had a ranch there at one time and their land touched the Yaviapi reservation, my Grandmother was friends with the Chief who was a women. My grandmother must have been attracted to Indian art because she had a very big collection of Kachina dolls that covered her wall (now in the Prescott Museum – her name was Virginia Brown). This made a huge impact on me as a little kid and every time we went to visit I would stare at that wall with all the different Kachinas for hours. I wanted to work with that power in my art, so out of respect, I called my friend Larry Anderson Jr. who lives on the rez in Arizona; he is half Hopi. I asked him how felt about me drawing Kachinas for the installation and showing the work to the public. He was good with it as long as I remained respectful.

At the end of each of the four corridors is a painting. These four paintings represent the four directions and they each have specific imagery that deals with a loosely abstract subject matter that is implied as we navigate the passage between the installation and the outer walls. The paintings are made on wood and drywall and corner bead to reflect the materials the installation was built from and to reference the earth.

Drywall = mud / dirt.
Corner Bead = rock, steal.
Wood = plant life.

After making the third turn through the small corridors we come to the entrance of the inner room. The door is 3ft tall, so we have to get on our hands and knees. This is to physically force us to become "humble' as we enter into the inner room in the same way we would enter into a inipi = sweat lodge.

Throughout the installation there are many conversations with symmetry. A drawing that looks like the sun is located about 2ft up from the floor on the west wall as we enter through the door on the east. This image directly faces the entrance. This same drawing at the same height is on the outside wall in the east corridor directly facing us when we leave the inner room. The two sun drawings are, in actuality, drawings of the silhouette of a hand drum when light passes through the skin. Just as these two drawings speak in tandem, there is a morning star symbol that has been made with wood inlay on the floor in the center of the room, directly above it is the morning star on the ceiling made from 2 x 4s creating a relief to counter the inlay. This morning star pattern is created when a sweat lodge is built in the traditional way of crossing the willow branches in the proper way. The floor surrounding the morning star symbol is made of plywood pieces assembled together in a patchwork or quilt fashion, giving the rest of the floor a random pattern.

Then in the Northwest corner are 10 cement sculptures that look breast-like, standing about 3 to 5 inches off the ground. They are cement made from molds cast from lemons. They’re illuminated by a rectangular light box set into the wall about 1 inch off the ground. The light from this box throws a soft shadow from the sculptures - this symbolizes the earth and fertility. Approximately 5ft up the West wall is a raw wood cube set into the wall 5 inches deep x 8 inches wide x 4 inches tall. Inside the cube lie a group of cement sculptures that look like long mushrooms or penises. This piece is titled "a bunch of dicks." They are pointed out headfirst, along with a sage stick lying in an abalone shell. The sage is there to balance the box as a positive or purifying element.

On the East wall, just above the doorway, is a drawing of a faceless person. The body of the individual is a mix between a Yaqui deer dancer and an evergreen dancer. The individual is without a face to reflect the void of personality and the gesture of "putting on a face" when we enter into the world. This picture sits flush with the wall’s surface.

Also, around this drawing, and in several of the corners of the room where the walls meet, there is dried paint that appears to have been formed from dripping yet its trajectory is horizontal rather than vertical. I painted the drywall first then applied the layers of drips and then turned it horizontal prior to screwing it into the studs. Then I mudded all the seams and later went back and did some touch ups. The horizontal paint-dippings were done to suggest a reorientation of logic; gravity is not adjusted to common sense so the order of application becomes subject to question. These are subtle things that may go unnoticed, but I was interested in working with this concept of “subtle knowledge” that speaks to a recessed part of the mind. It supports the notion that the order of things, and reality, is a postulation. To bring the manner in which paint drips into an interrogation sets a foundation for all other aspects of reality to be subject to question. For these drippings I also used a paint color that is a tone slightly off in hue from that of the wall color (to call attention to the difference, but not overtly). Then within this room are six light boxes recessed into the walls, the number six being synonymous numerically with the directions West, North, East, South, Above, Below, a low level light emanating from the boxes illuminates the room, and in the Southeast corner of the room is black square painting with one larger white shape and one large black shape - this is a reference to opposites coexisting.

Then in the Northeast corner are two additional paintings: one on the North side and the other on the Eastside of the walls. They mirror each other; both hang directly under a light box. The paintings are rectangular and are black with white circles to create an optical effect. If it is stared at for a short amount of time the circles will reappear on other surfaces for a few seconds after the viewer looks away. Since the circle is a universal symbol I wanted to use it in conjunction with the light boxes, the colors black and white, and the two paintings to create an extension of symmetry that the audience carries into the other parts of the space by way of the optical illusion.

On the South wall is a kinetic sculpture called Ta ku shkan shkan, a Lakota word that translates to “something moving moving.” This word signifies the concept that there is something that moves gravity, the wind. It is the force of mystery behind all things animate. I made this sculpture from two sheets of perforated steal. The front sheet is stationary while the second is attached to an arm that is attached to a rotating motor. As the second sheet moves behind the first sheet (all mechanical aspects of the piece are built into the wall) creating a “Moray effect.” Clusters of circles move around in a three-dimensional effect causing the viewers eye’s to blur out of focus. For some people this is a calming effect and for others it is nauseating. The two pieces of metal are painted black and the wall behind the moving piece is painted white. Because of this the moving circles appear to be white. Outside of the room the exterior wall is open, revealing the guts of the kinetic sculpture. The viewer can see the weights that help the moving screen stabilize itself while it rotating up and down in a cylindrical motion. The motor is held in place by two orange C clamps. To the right of the C clamp are three photographs of Navajo men in a traditional dwelling making a sand drawing. This drawing serves the same purpose as prayers - a kind of communication with the spirit world. The motor makes a whining, grinding gear, but very soothing sound. I also installed a speaker inside one of the walls to which an ipod is connected so the soundtrack that my brother composed under my direction can be heard throughout the room. The soundtrack begins with the beating of a ceremony drum fading in…., boom, boom, boom, boom, at a rapid pace for about two minuets then it fades out to silence for about one minute. Then the same drum starts back up but this time it is accompanied by the swells of electric feed back recorded from my bass as it pans through various frequencies to sustain harmonic tones. This sound is more abstract and has a distant aggression that sounds like it is coming from deep space. Then the soundtrack fades back out to silence again for about three minutes and the whole thing starts back up again. It plays continuously while the installation’s motor apparatus is activated.

What is your relationship to Native identity and culture?

My relationship to Native American culture is a long story, but in short I have been attending and participating in ceremonies such as sweat lodges, Humblachia and Sundance for about ten years now. My "uncle" John Funmaker is Lakota and Hochunk. He is a Sundance Chief who runs lodges here in California. He goes to many of the prisons where he runs lodges for the Natives that are behind bars. The group he started is called Iron Circle due to his involvement with the prison system. We are also dedicated to maintaining a life that is without drugs and alcohol. John Funmaker is my dega and I learn from him and help him with ceremony whenever he asks. It is through my deep involvement with this way of praying that I am most connected to Indigenous culture.

But, it goes beyond that. Before I had any direct involvement with Native American philosophy I had built an ideology through my observations and experiences in life. I lived alone with my personal views on the world until a girlfriend at the time, artist Kelly Mulloy, gave me the book Black Elk Speaks, and immediately following that my childhood friend John Wall gave me the more contemporary Black Elk book. Both friends said that many of the things in the books reminded them of things I had spoken of.

It was through these books that I realized that a whole entire nation of people shared my personal ideology, and in fact, could help me understand my perception of life. The fact that the traditional American Indian ideology was so similar to the belief system I had developed on my own was extraordinary to me. For the first time in my life I didn't feel alone with my thoughts. The notion that I could find others that shared and could help me learn about the experiences I had been living with by myself for so long inspired me to such an degree that over a period of searching I was able to get to where I am now.

The red road has colored my eyes and all I do is an extension of my personal relationship with the mystery power. My art and music is the way I recreate that relationship in a way that I can share its energy. I could write pages about this in that it is the most interesting, important aspect of my life; in fact it is the infrastructure of my life, the soul.

Fake Indian was a conceptual installation that talked about my involvement with the red road as a white man and how those two sometimes-contradictory ideas have manifested as one.

As we confront the challenges of environmental problems and a dysfunctional government with all their broken agendas and archaic views that first initiated the marginalization of the American Indian, we now see that it is this way of thinking that has lead the world straight into many of the modern problems of today. The U.S. government’s foundation has been born out of the Judeo/Christian way of thinking and it's fear based need to convert peoples and ideas that show any kind difference from that way of thinking. This “do or be dammed” show of force has devoured the earth and its natural balance. It has now become obvious that the first peoples elaborate way of life contained all the intellectual sophistication necessary to maintain societal and environmental relationships. Now more than ever the voice of this endangered philosophy needs to be heard. I feel that I am in a unique position to be able to learn from both the non-native world and the native world and with this, the opportunity to help foster a symbiotic relationship between the two ideologies. The most important idea that I hear among my Native friends over and over again is Mitakuye Oyasin = to all my relations = we are all connected- so simple, so relevant, so revolutionary.


Have you made any other works that are Native centric and/or comment on identity politics?

Yes.

You are also a musician, can you tell us about your music? What instrument do you play? Do you participate in powwows, drum circles, or other ceremonial music events?

I don't play music, it plays me...ha-ha just kidding. That whole "it just comes to me" artist thing cracks me up. Well, talking about music is a bit like talking about art, kinda, you know? I would rather have sex then talk about it. But lets just say Bass, in fact lets say it again, The Bass. I like rhythm, bass and drums. My group, The Holloys, has two drummers and I play bass and trumpet and sing, we sometimes have a guitar player but it is about rhythm. Like a team locked in to a motion, like arms on a bug or weights and pulleys. My brother Bryan Lee Brown is a big part of it.

I sing at ceremony when I know the songs.

Have you ever been to Gathering of Nations, Denver March or that big Aztec fest they have in L.A.?

I have been to the Elders Gathering several times in San Pedro; the group Iron Nation that I am a part of puts that on. I have been to some powwows and attend ceremony regularly. I once went to this thing call the Indigenous Environment Network. That was a big starting place for me to get introduced to a lot of things Native. The Aztec dancers are always around Los Angeles at one place or another.

What tribe of all the tribes in the Western Hemisphere do you most identify with?

My dega is Lakota and Hochunk so I do ceremony in that way, Sioux style. But I really like the Hopi pantheism. I don't really identify with any of them cause I am not of those clans or tribes. I am not Indian by blood.

I identify with the idea that I come form another tribe altogether and I have been adopted into this way. I write about this place called “Lake Land,” that is my hemisphere; it is the place that my creative energy comes from. I made it up and it made me. The Holloys are part of that world. I got no roots so to speak so I fit in everywhere and nowhere. In the medicine wheel there is a white color, and all those colors, the red, the black, the yellow are connected to it.

And now, just for fun, and because lots of people would, if Zach de la Roche started an indigenous revolution in which he names himself “El Gran Jefe” would you join?

That's funny cause Zach is friend of mine. He, and the band I was in called Blue Bird, shared a rehearsal space for years, but to be honest, the question throws me off ‘cause I don't see him doing that. Zach's revolution seems to me to be more about education through the arts, making people aware and then what happens from there is up to them. On the other hand, I suppose we would have to discuss what my position in the revolution would be. I feel like we are already doing that right now, even you and I in this interview. Some of the most powerful changes come about in very subtle ways. Plus all people are indigenous to somewhere so in theory it gets complicated. I can say now that it would have to be an extreme situation for me "follow" someone, everything I have been taught in ceremony is to follow no one. That is the teaching of the circle. I acknowledge my teachers, and learn from them, but they themselves say, put no person on a pedestal and don't look down at anyone. We are all equal, be your own person, get your direction from the creator, and pray hard.


Which Indian, past or present, do you think would make a great president?

I don't know history well enough, but I would imagine that there are many that could facilitate the job well. Since much of the first drafts of the Constitution of the United States was influenced by the Iroquois nation I would say go back and find out who was the Chief back then and put that person in the oval office. And do you put a medicine person in office or a holy person or a warrior? What kind of head is going to be best in these times? I think Obama is pretty great from here, so far. His wife’s side (of the family) might have some Indian blood - we should look into it. She might be the Indian coming into the White House.

What future projects are you working on and will your band be touring New York City any time soon so NAICA can come out to support you in person?

I am working on “little Olympics,” that is where I swim for the gold everyday in my fantasy world while I do my daily mile swim at the community pool. I got a bunch of stuff on the stove; long-term goal is a giant barge that is an organic farm floating up and down the western coast of the Americas. We will have a hotel, a five star restaurant, some eco engineering work-study exchange program, an artist residency, and shows for touring bands, chickens, horses, and helicopters. The public will be able to come aboard via boat and helicopter and spend some a night, a week or a year. It will be the ultimate alternatinve get-a-way destination and an ongoing experiment. Doesn't it sound great?! Look for The Holloys - we will be in New York sometime in 2009, and we got a European tour coming up in the spring, and we’re working out a Japan tour for the summer. Also, we have a new record coming out called Art Wars.